"L'enfer c'est les autres"--JP Sartre
This year, students will explore the theme of otherness. What defines the mainstream and how does this mainstream dictate to others? What does it mean to be marginalized? How has the mainstream impacted the world of ideas across the centuries?
In my opinion, I cannot decide who’s actions are worse, Cholly’s or Mr. Henry’s. The actual action of raping one’s own daughter is definitely worse than only touching a young girl; however, Mr. Henry could have been trying to, in fact rape Frieda. Nevertheless, we cannot be sure of what Mr. Henry had in mind. It is therefore possible to say that the actual actions of Cholly were worse and more severe than Mr. Henry’s. However, throughout the book, we are told not to think of the “Why?” and rather the “How?” In this case, we should not focus on the “What?” and indeed the “How?” I think that Cholly’s actions seem less vicious because we are aware of what was going through his head when he raped Pecola. We know that he was not as much attracted to Pecola, as he was to the vision he had of his daughter that reflected his own wife. Cholly’s actions are not understandable; however, we know he had some kind of perverse love in him, and did not rape Pecola out of pure evil. Furthermore, Mr. Henry had been found with the whores at the Macteers’ home earlier in the novel, which shows his sexual side, which also proves his disrespect for the family. Also, his kindness to Frieda and Claudia may have been because he was attracted to them since he met them and had perverse thoughts from the beginning. He also just finds pleasure in his actions of touching a young girl, while Cholly was imagining his wife. Nonetheless, it is impossible to know exactly which “How” is worse because we do not know the thoughts and intentions of Mr. Henry.
I agree with what Aurianna said. Comparing Mr. Henry and Cholly based on their crimes would be picking the lesser of two evils. However, by looking at their pasts, I believe that Mr. Henry's crime is more evil because it seemed to be masterminded. Mr. Henry's crime is filled with deceit. He shows himself as a nice person, introducing himself to the young girls when he first saw them. In retrospect, I wonder what his intentions were when he first met them. Was he nice to them because he was trying to lure them? Or was it genuine?
I think that in the case of (esp. child oriented) sex offenses, there is no declaring an action worse than another. Rape, molestation: both are vile and scarring actions. Of course, we'd tend to scale an action down if we know the motivations (like with Cholly), but for me it makes absolutely no difference if Pecola reminded Cholly of his wife: it was his daughter he was raping. Mr. Henry is just as bad as Cholly, not "more bad." Both of them pervert the trust children have of them, one with rape and the other with molestation. All in all, there is no scale for me. Cholly and Mr. Henry and Soaphead Church are all the same.
Welcome, bloggers--nice to hear from you :) we'll be weighing this question tomorrow and take a look at how Morrison has juxtaposed the three to get a sense of what she means to say. I would have to say that Cholly is not a pedophile, even though he rapes his daughter. Does that make sense?
I think at the moment he watches his daughter, Cholly becomes convinced that the act of sex is the highest gesture of love he can bestow upon another human being, hence his daughter. To him sex=love (a stupid lover will love stupidly).Cholly realizes, for the first time, his innate love for Pecola and decides to show his love by having sex with her, the only way he knows how to express it. On the other hand, Mr Henry tried to take advantage of Frieda's childish innocence to do things to her only out of perverted intentions. We may not know what he had in mind, but the fact that he had pornographic magazines, and that he desecrated the MacTeer's rules and trust by bringing the whores into their house shows nothing good of him. In my opinion, Mr Henry is a bigger offender than Cholly.
Matthew has a point--we are going to look at the scene closely on Wednesday, but cholly thinks back to what it is he can possibly give her, ever... Can we relate this to the power issue in the book?
Cholly in some ways is better than Mr. Henry, because his intentions are not "bad"; he had no intention of hurting his daughter he simply wanted to show her that he loved her and to him that meant sex. Sex was the only thing the Cholly could give her: he didn't have any money to buy her toys or candy, and he didn't know how to bestow love as a father, so he bestowed his love on her as if she were his lover. Cholly is the only one in the entire book to show Pecola any sign of love. IN the passage before the rape, he questions Pecola's life, he wants to know why his daughter is so unhappy, he wants to know if there is something that he can do to make her happy. Cholly wants to be able to show her that he loves her, that beneath his drunken exterior there is love for his daughter. Even though, the situation backfires and ends up hurting both him and Pecola, his intentions weren't to cause her harm, on the contrary he wanted her to be happy. However, when it comes to Mr. Henry, his intentions were to violate Frieda; he is a pedophile and he wanted to touch her breasts out of his own pleasure. Although, I do agree with what Naima says, I still believe that Cholly is somewhat "better" than the others. Cholly is not a pedophile,but Soaphead Church and Mr. Henry are.
In my opinion, I cannot decide who’s actions are worse, Cholly’s or Mr. Henry’s. The actual action of raping one’s own daughter is definitely worse than only touching a young girl; however, Mr. Henry could have been trying to, in fact rape Frieda. Nevertheless, we cannot be sure of what Mr. Henry had in mind. It is therefore possible to say that the actual actions of Cholly were worse and more severe than Mr. Henry’s. However, throughout the book, we are told not to think of the “Why?” and rather the “How?” In this case, we should not focus on the “What?” and indeed the “How?” I think that Cholly’s actions seem less vicious because we are aware of what was going through his head when he raped Pecola. We know that he was not as much attracted to Pecola, as he was to the vision he had of his daughter that reflected his own wife. Cholly’s actions are not understandable; however, we know he had some kind of perverse love in him, and did not rape Pecola out of pure evil. Furthermore, Mr. Henry had been found with the whores at the Macteers’ home earlier in the novel, which shows his sexual side, which also proves his disrespect for the family. Also, his kindness to Frieda and Claudia may have been because he was attracted to them since he met them and had perverse thoughts from the beginning. He also just finds pleasure in his actions of touching a young girl, while Cholly was imagining his wife. Nonetheless, it is impossible to know exactly which “How” is worse because we do not know the thoughts and intentions of Mr. Henry.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Aurianna said. Comparing Mr. Henry and Cholly based on their crimes would be picking the lesser of two evils. However, by looking at their pasts, I believe that Mr. Henry's crime is more evil because it seemed to be masterminded. Mr. Henry's crime is filled with deceit. He shows himself as a nice person, introducing himself to the young girls when he first saw them. In retrospect, I wonder what his intentions were when he first met them. Was he nice to them because he was trying to lure them? Or was it genuine?
ReplyDeleteI think that in the case of (esp. child oriented) sex offenses, there is no declaring an action worse than another. Rape, molestation: both are vile and scarring actions.
ReplyDeleteOf course, we'd tend to scale an action down if we know the motivations (like with Cholly), but for me it makes absolutely no difference if Pecola reminded Cholly of his wife: it was his daughter he was raping. Mr. Henry is just as bad as Cholly, not "more bad." Both of them pervert the trust children have of them, one with rape and the other with molestation.
All in all, there is no scale for me. Cholly and Mr. Henry and Soaphead Church are all the same.
Welcome, bloggers--nice to hear from you :)
ReplyDeletewe'll be weighing this question tomorrow and take a look at how Morrison has juxtaposed the three to get a sense of what she means to say. I would have to say that Cholly is not a pedophile, even though he rapes his daughter. Does that make sense?
I think at the moment he watches his daughter, Cholly becomes convinced that the act of sex is the highest gesture of love he can bestow upon another human being, hence his daughter. To him sex=love (a stupid lover will love stupidly).Cholly realizes, for the first time, his innate love for Pecola and decides to show his love by having sex with her, the only way he knows how to express it. On the other hand, Mr Henry tried to take advantage of Frieda's childish innocence to do things to her only out of perverted intentions. We may not know what he had in mind, but the fact that he had pornographic magazines, and that he desecrated the MacTeer's rules and trust by bringing the whores into their house shows nothing good of him. In my opinion, Mr Henry is a bigger offender than Cholly.
ReplyDeleteMatthew has a point--we are going to look at the scene closely on Wednesday, but cholly thinks back to what it is he can possibly give her, ever...
ReplyDeleteCan we relate this to the power issue in the book?
Cholly in some ways is better than Mr. Henry, because his intentions are not "bad"; he had no intention of hurting his daughter he simply wanted to show her that he loved her and to him that meant sex. Sex was the only thing the Cholly could give her: he didn't have any money to buy her toys or candy, and he didn't know how to bestow love as a father, so he bestowed his love on her as if she were his lover.
ReplyDeleteCholly is the only one in the entire book to show Pecola any sign of love. IN the passage before the rape, he questions Pecola's life, he wants to know why his daughter is so unhappy, he wants to know if there is something that he can do to make her happy. Cholly wants to be able to show her that he loves her, that beneath his drunken exterior there is love for his daughter. Even though, the situation backfires and ends up hurting both him and Pecola, his intentions weren't to cause her harm, on the contrary he wanted her to be happy.
However, when it comes to Mr. Henry, his intentions were to violate Frieda; he is a pedophile and he wanted to touch her breasts out of his own pleasure.
Although, I do agree with what Naima says, I still believe that Cholly is somewhat "better" than the others.
Cholly is not a pedophile,but Soaphead Church and Mr. Henry are.